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halonut117
Ash
Artist | Hobbyist | Traditional Art
United Kingdom
He who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a god.


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:iconkagestorn:
Kagestorn Featured By Owner Edited Jan 29, 2016
Personally, I can't actually understand why do you base your opinion on Jedi in the army on your personal, well... Prejudice.

I understand the criticism, of course. I felt like an idiot about making someone a jeneral JUST because he's a force user, even a master Jedi. But that doesn't mean that they can't be good commanders. In a way, It's like racism. (no offence - just a reference).

For example, We could say, that most terrorists are Muslims, that doesn't mean that most Muslims are terrorists.

The same goes about Jedi in the military.

There are always idiots/traitors in the chain of command, sometimes that means the highest ranks, but that depends NOT on if you are a Jedi or not. Being a force user doesn't make you a bad general, being BAD GENERAL makes you a bad general.

In my opinion, It's wrong to judge a group, especially big one, of people, depending on their force abilities/Jedi training.

It's as wrong to judge someone's capabilities in leadership on their race/gender or occupation (Well here's a little trick. :D Military specialist are mostly, preferable of course, but - later about that).

Yes, generally Jedi were, mostly meant and supposed to be peacekeepers, not soldiers.

But throughout the LONG history of Republic, Jedi took positions in the military, not once, not twice. Hundreds of times.

And overall, they were GOOD at that. Overall. Good enough to save the republic Numerious times. Apperently not good enough to save it from Palpatine, but hey - that guy was awesome in how badass and ingenious he was, you've got to give him credit XD. But still - It's enough to at least give them a fair judgement.

And yes, there were always a lot of bad people among the Jedi, not even incompetent military leaders, but simply bad, cruel, amazingly bad persons that have done a lot of evil things, while staying a Jedi. The sad stories of General Grievous, and Jango Fett speak clearly - then thether they believed they do righteous things, or just abused their power, they did evil, which in the end lead to even worser things.

But that's how life goes.

And still, overall, Jedi done so much good things, and won so many battles and wars for the Republic through it's several millennia history (not just by themselves of course, but through the leadership), that all bad things, though serious enough (remember those stories i mentioned), are totally outnumbered.

Consider this for a second: if at least the majority of Jedi were as bad as some people try to portrait them, how did they manage to hold their ground AT ALL in at least the first year. Even with Palpatine schemes, they would simply collapse. (Like, for example - incompetent leaderships of Red Army in 1941, in which, throughout the whole year, resolved in 1/32 casualty ratio with the Vermacht. No tech advantage or moment of surprise could possibly do that).

And with such great generals, in clone wars, which names we know (there's too many to mention here, but it's all on the Wikipedia. Such names as Kenobi and Skywalker are too legendary to talk about), who continued to, mostly of course, defeat the CIS throughout the whole war. I think that speaks for something.

I do not defend incompetent Jedi. I always thought it was completely IDIOTIC to put ANYONE in command just because he's a Jedi. But you have to agree, jedi skills and training are not bad qualities for a general, by default. It doesn't make them good strategists by default too, but THERE WERE good strategists among Jedi ALLWAYS. During each and any war in which Republic EVER participated. Ever.

As I said, just dismissing even MAJORITY of Jedi as bad commanders is not JUST. I honestly don't understand why you think otherwise.

I really love your art. It is very inspiring, and beautiful, I keep returning to it again and again. And the. Giant Fly in the soup is your opinion on Jedi, it just makes it all... Not justified somehow.

Moreover - you admitted yourself, that there is not much information on productivity of Jedi military leadership throughout the clone wars overall. And even lesser of those that confirm that there were bad ones, besides certain... unjustified books, meant for certain... auditory (concidering that the whole Star Wars franchise, not even movies per say, have "certain auditory' themselves XD, but you get the idea).

But lack of info on that point is bad too - I'm totally shure, that if Star Wars, at least on this subject operated on reality standards, the success ratio of Jedi military command would be VERY FAR FROM PERFECT, or even good. BUT. It was decent enough.

LIKE PROBABLY EVERYONE ELSE WOULD BE IN THEIR PLACE.

The Republic entered the clone wars practically with no COMPLETE ARMY, military infrastructure, and/or are least some decent generals AT ALL. (Navy was an exception). And Jedi were by default nor better, nor worse then anyone else. Spamming most of them into the military was Palpatine scheme, for obvious reasons, and not something clever from the military point of view.

And still, overall - it payed off. Again - OVERALL. And again, for obvious reasons.

During big wars (especially when you have no established military infrastructure, already appointed military leaders p, at least on key points, or even ways to train them, or potentional candidates, at the beginning of conflict, WHATSOEVER. at all), bad decisions and waste of lives are bound to happen. But even in the IDEAL (per say, i mean,  Ruther "fair", when both sides enter war at least in considerably same shape, and potential) they are inevitable. The history is totally clear on that. Even military geniuses, in good conditions, made mistakes that costed them not even battles, but entire WARS.



Whew. That's a lot of text. Sorry for so much emotions, I never had no porpuse to offend you in no possible way.

It's your amazing art that makes me react this way. Damn it all, just tell me, what you think about all this bullshit. I know you're not totally unjust towards the Jedi (some arts make that clear), but still - you, clearly got some. A lot. And I would like to discuss it with you, if you're not against the idea. Sorry to bother you again, but still - a response would be nice, even if you'd just let me know if you read all this book of a post.

Thanks again.
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:iconhalonut117:
halonut117 Featured By Owner Jan 29, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Wow. Okay. While I don't hate all jed I do dislike most due to their attitude in the books, shows, games and movies. How they feel they are better than most simply due to being able to use the force. They act polite and charming to each other and those in authority but everyone they perceive to be beneath them, the majority of the galaxy, are treated like ignorant children. "We're jedi, we know better, stay out of our way and let the grownups handle it" not all are like that but most are. 

As for the clone wars, the clone troopers were trained by soldiers to be soldiers. They were an army, a navy and an air force all in one with their own ranks. They could have fought the war without the jedi on the field. Granted, some of the jedi had experience leading large groups but none leading armies. And yet they plow on regardless. Some generals did care for their troops and let them lead sometimes but more often than not they treated them like droids. Instead of referring to these highly skilled, highly trained soldiers it was the other way around. The jedi were trained to be peacekeepers and missionaries  (in the helping and providing aid sense, not promoting their religion)
Which isn't much good if you're trying to take a city or destroy an enemy installation. They had no place leading an army, a few mentioned it but the jedi as a whole didn't step back. In my opinion they should have either stayed away from the battlefront or worked under the clone commanders. Hell, they could have at least undertaken some military training. 

While Skywalker did try to learn from his troopers and see them as human, kenobi treated them like tools built for the sole purpose if making his life easier. He was a good jedi, a decent teacher but a poor leader. I don't mean to sound like a dick but the jedi in general are elitist pricks. They think they know best while only having a limited view of things which ultimately led to their downfall. If they had let the clones fight the war while they continued with their original duties and focused on the sith things might have been different. There would have been fewer killed when order 66 came down at least. But thats just my opinion. I don't hate the jedi outright, I strongly dislike their way of doing things.
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:iconkagestorn:
Kagestorn Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2016
I know what you mean, the point is clear. But.

Damn it, how to put it. To my look (I'm sorry, I could be easily wrong) You are, very misguided about the whole clone wars overall subject.

First of all when you are talking about "most" Jedi, I'd like it o know your sources, because, as far as I know, it was - "mostly" quite the opposite.

I'd like to talk about Jedi military tradition in the Republic, but that can wait I suppose.

Maybe you don't know, but during the big wars, commanding officers ALLWAYS tend to treat their soldiers like tools, or even garbage, because that's how the wars is. Sad but true.

While the clone army has this "brotherhood", it never made them absolutely righteous. They did betray (not order 66). The did desert. And yes, they did send their "brothers" on suicide missions with no glimp of remorse. For example, I clearly remember a clone commando officer, trying to beat the hell out of Cody for letting his men die for nothing (Jedi not involved). As far, as I remember, of course. And there's other examples too.

And things like that are perfectly NORMAL during the big war, no matter who is commanding. Mistakes and necessary/unnecessary sacrifices are bound to happen. No matter of level of professionslity of the military. That's how the war goes. And Jedi, on overall level were neither better neither worse than anyone else, in any other war.

Moreover, as far as I know, overall Jedi, mostly because of their training as peacekeepers and "monks" didn't treat their clones bad, because they were supposed to care for everyone in the galaxy, and be compassionate. I personally can remember only small amount of Jedi who were absoulute jerks to clones. Even those who didn't like them or trust them, mostly didn't try to USE them.

I have no Idea, why you think Kenobi thought clones were tools during the war, especially with psome concrete guys, he formed a bond with.

Anakin, however, especially during his early times in the war, didn't like them much - though it changed in time.

As much as I remember, of course.

I could name probably a long list of famous Jedi generals, that formed a deep bond with their clones, and were rightfully respected by them. That however didn't stop them from killing them, which most Jedi would never do, simply by the order (as we saw a lot of times).

And consider this: a lot of times, the force... Really saved the day during clone wars, you can't deny that.

There is a reason, why Jedi act "elitary". They kind of earned it with their productivity. No I don't like it very much eather, in a way, but they were given this authority for a reason. Republic made the like this because they were good at this, since the Republic began to exist.

For example, you don't ask why FIB or CIA ( bad example, I know) act "elitary", and like they don't give a shit about anyone's personal problems. That's because they don't have time for personal bullshit. Mostly of course. They have the authority, because they were trusted with it. And they are trusted for a reason - they are successfull at their job.

Yes, Jedi arrogance, if there is some, freaks me out too. Believe me, it does. But they have this privilege, because they, mostly don't do it this harsh. It's not like that completely, it's more on a personal level.

And one more thing. You have to admit, that a lot of times, Jedi saved their troops in such situation, no one else could do it. And they did it a lot. Force is a perk you can' deny, even if sometimes, it was used to get them out of the mess, Jedi created themselves.

Jedi were tough fighters, mostly, they were trained to fight. And not easily killed, that's a perk too.

Order 66 and later purge doesn't count. For obvious reasons.

I'm not trying to defend them, like they are destined defenders of Galaxy, with no flaws, I'm not like that.


I'm trying to make you consider, that it is much more complex, than you believe it is, that's all.

P.S. And no, clone military was not self sufficient (in the beginning). And for a reason. There were no clone generals trained, because this role, was destined by the sith for the Jedi, from the start. And clone commanders were not generals, the wee middle rank officers, trained for this purpose, not other. And after the war, empire pure other people in charge of them, not clones too, if you remeber. Again, it's not that different.
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:iconhalonut117:
halonut117 Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
 think you're taking this fictional universe a bit too seriously, chief
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:iconcrownedvegas:
crownedvegas Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
ohman dude good job on like everything. you draw manly men, guns, people, fINGERS (i cannot draw hands/fingers at all omf). im in awe of you, sir. keep it up 
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:iconhalonut117:
halonut117 Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Cheers, I'll try keep the work coming. :thanks:
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:iconmoonzaphire:
MoonZaphire Featured By Owner Apr 2, 2015  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thank you for fav, happy easter by MoonZaphire
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:iconhalonut117:
halonut117 Featured By Owner Apr 2, 2015  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
You too, my friend :) 
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:iconhardcase1:
hardcase1 Featured By Owner Apr 1, 2015  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
TNX FOR JOINING MY GROUP.
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:iconhalonut117:
halonut117 Featured By Owner Apr 1, 2015  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
No problem 
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